John Stephen Discusses Housing Crisis on WDEV Radio

Executive Councilor John Stephen joined Ross Connolly on WDEV radio and discussed the housing crisis in New Hampshire, emphasizing the need to increase housing supply by streamlining permitting processes and local zoning regulations. He highlighted examples like Brady Sullivan’s redevelopment of mill buildings into affordable housing. Stephen noted that regulatory delays, often lasting years, drive up costs. He advocated for better collaboration among state agencies and suggested legislative changes to reduce acreage requirements. Governor Kelly Ayotte’s mandate aims for 60-day approvals, and Stephen stressed the importance of efficiency and fiscal responsibility in government spending to address the issue effectively.

Listen to the episode here.

Transcribed by Otter.ai

John Stephen Radio 1 22 25

Wed, Jan 22, 2025 8:12PM • 22:20

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

housing costs, supply issues, local zoning, state approval, regulatory burden, permit timelines, development delays, streamlining process, best practices, state agencies, local control, efficiency, Governor Ayotte, spending control, tax dollars

SPEAKERS

Ross Connolly, John Stephen

Ross Connolly  00:00

And welcome back. You’re listening to Vermont viewpoint with Ross Connolly Wednesday morning, nine to 11am here on W, D, E V radio, am and f m, streaming at W, D, E V radio.com, don’t forget, you can call into the show with your thoughts and questions. 802-244-1777, next up, we have executive councilor John Stephen from New Hampshire here to talk about an issue both of our states are dealing with, maybe different situations, but same issue, which is housing costs. Counselor Steven, thanks so much for joining the Vermont viewpoint.

John Stephen  00:38

Welcome Ross. It’s great to talk with you this morning.

Ross Connolly  00:42

So I mentioned both New Hampshire and Vermont and Maine and Massachusetts. Basically the whole region has this shared issue of sky high housing costs. What’s the situation specifically like in the Granite State, and what’s driving these, these increased costs?

John Stephen  01:00

I mean, it’s, it’s very similar in nature. And during the campaign trail over the summer, I constantly heard of the issues of rising housing costs and the impact on the communities. And there are a number of issues. Is a very complex situation, but the supply is a big issue for me, and I believe strongly that, you know, we we’ve got to do a better job in the state of New Hampshire. And I know the Governor thinks the same way in increasing the supply of housing, which means or goes to the very issue of permitting development, local zoning, and also State agency review and approval of developments, and those approvals have been taking so long and developers aren’t able to build, and individuals in a community are having problems with some of their local zoning and planning, and we just got to figure out a way to streamline. And I think whether you’re a Republican, Democrat or Independent, you all, we all agree that we need more supply of housing. That’s a big issue. Ross and I believe with the supply increase, we will be able to decrease the cost of housing.

Ross Connolly  02:16

It seems to be a moment where, where everyone to your point, is realizing that the that’s what’s causing, causing the increased costs. I even saw Governor now, Gavin Newsom yesterday, they, you know, in the disaster prone areas and Los Angeles, they’re waiving all regulations to make it easier to build homes. You know, where is the regulatory burden or the red tape coming from in New Hampshire? Is it the local level, the state level, a combination of the two?

John Stephen  02:55

It’s clearly all the above. Again, this is very complex situation, but I’ll just give you examples. You know, for example, Brady Sullivan. Arthur Sullivan has done an unbelievably great job here in the City of Manchester and also surrounding Manchester, where he has gone into, you know, mill buildings and areas of you know, formerly commercial buildings, and they’ve been vacant and empty for years, and he is able to restore those into apartments and offer, offer, you know, good, reasonable cost apartments for people in the community, and grow the economy in that particular community. I remember Ross going to the town of allenstown, where there was a mill building next to one of the water supply facilities that was vacant for a number of years. And he put, I believe, 300 apartments in that community. And next thing you know, that community is starting to build. Businesses are coming in to the to the central Main Street, and things are starting to move in the right direction. We’ve heard about, you know, curbside permits, anytime there’s a curbside issue, going to the Department of Transportation to get a permit to even remove a curbside in a development takes some some developers have said it takes up to three years. And we have people that I know that have been waiting so long before they can even go to the local zoning, and then local zoning has their own regulations. And there’s currently a bill in at the state house to bring, bring a reasonable standard on the number of acres you can have if you if you’re not going into town water or city water and sewage, and you know, you’re looking at a well, and you’ve got other areas where it’s, you know, a landowner should be able to do what they need to do with their own land and build, and that’s taking months and months, and sometimes there’s a five acre limit. And I know, I know a lot of these are local issues, but we all have to come to the table and agree on standards that are reasonable here, and all. So permit timeline and process that’s reasonable and streamlined. That may mean Ross that every agency Fish and Game, whether we see a turtle in an area that hasn’t been seen for years, and we can’t seem to locate where that turtle is and it’s taken months to identify, we all need to get back to the reasonable, common sense, and identify what you know, what’s best for the state, the environment and the community in a very streamlined, expedited fashion. And if we do that, we’re going to be able to help development and increase supply and lower the cost.

Ross Connolly  05:37

There’s certainly a balance. I mean, I mean, we want to protect the environment, but, you know, to your point of having, you know, a turtle is spotted three miles from a development. Should we say that people shouldn’t have homes because of this turtle? You know, do you think it’s just, you know, it’s a switching of a mental model, and, you know, focusing on, on the people, and balancing between those, those two priorities. You know, how do we do that, especially at the at the local level, you know, in town planning boards and zoning boards? Well, first of all, if you mentioned the word balancing, it’s absolutely balancing, and there are bills pending right now to bring that balancing into state law, because it hasn’t been reasonable. I am not one that likes to go to state law to solve all these problems. A lot of these are local problems. Some of it Ross is just communication. Some of it is processed currently on the books, can be streamlined in the turtle example, you know, is there a way we could figure out quickly and reasonably what we need to do to make sure that that species, maybe we find another area in that town where the species can be removed and moved, but that can be done quickly. And what I’m finding out is it may be maybe the season that begins to be winter, and the season affects the the ability for fish and game to make whatever decisions they need to make. And we wait another six months. Meanwhile, building costs go up.

John Stephen  07:11

We need to do this quickly, and we need to make sure the state agencies are working with these developers such that an idea that’s coming out is maybe a per se, you know, quick approval, where the the issues are dealt dealt with at the first go around. This isn’t like we’re going to have four or five different iterations and questions. And next thing you know, 18 months go by, no, let’s get all these issues out on the table early on in the process. And if it if resources are needed for these agencies. There’s also another idea that came out of the Round Table forum I just recently hosted with you know, both developers and state agencies that we we find a way to subcontract out engineering and other reviews that everybody could agree with and only need to be done once, and we move forward and the developers are on the hook, or if there are costs later on that come out as a result of that engineering decision. But if everybody agrees that this engineer is certified and is one relies on as well, why do we have to have 345, different engineers, even at the local level, working on the same development which costs so much money, which is a result of why a lot of costs are dry, are driving up or being driven up, not all the reason. But if we can somehow bring the supply together and increase reduce the cost of overall building by decreasing the timeline, I think we’re going to be in a much better position.

Ross Connolly  08:44

Very good point. You know, a lot of these projects get drawn out for years, mostly because of red tape. Whether it’s here in Vermont or New Hampshire or Maine or Massachusetts, it’s really the same, same sort of thing where it’s the local government or the state government that’s that’s really delaying the process. Sometimes years in, the developer has to, has to turn those costs over somehow. So that raise raises the price of the final property that’s that’s created. So it’s really about, you know, would you say being more efficient, working smarter, not harder?

John Stephen  09:22

Yeah, absolutely Ross at all levels, local and state, including development. And the one thing that I think is really important here is there are towns in New Hampshire that do it right. There are towns that are very swift, efficient on this local zoning and planning works with developers, not against them. We ought to be taking a page out of those towns, maybe put together a best practice analysis, so that every town can follow rather than, you know, look to legislation. And I’m, again, I’m not a big believer in legislation that impacts, you know, towns decision making. I’m a local control. Whole person at heart. But there is going to be legislation to talk about, for example, the 1.5 acre limits. And sometimes in New Hampshire, you can’t build a lot unless you’re building on five acres or more. They’re going to be some discussions on reducing the number of Acre, acreage requirements, other things like that. Let’s all get to the table and identify what is the best practice here, and let’s follow it. And the state. Remember 1925 the state of New Hampshire delegated, or gave a lot of the authority to local zoning here, and what, what has happened over the years and that ought to be looked at. And what are some of the areas where we can actually, you know, follow through on streamlining at the local level, and all those issues Ross are going to be discussed this session in the New Hampshire legislature. And maybe we need to look at some of these other states, Vermont included, unless there’s similar problems. But we just got to find the best practice and be able to follow it. And I think at the end, the individual that needs, that wants to buy a home, their first home is going to is going to be the winner, in the long run, the family.

Ross Connolly  11:11

I definitely want to get to some of the solutions. And you know, shared solutions between both Vermont and New Hampshire to address this issue this year, but we have to take a quick commercial break. John, so stick with us. You’re listening to the Vermont viewpoint with Ross Connolly on w d e v radio, am and f m, streaming at W, d e v radio.com We’ll be right back after this commercial break. And welcome back. You’re listening to the Vermont viewpoint with Ross Connolly on w d, e, v radio, am and F, M, every Wednesday, nine to 11am call into the show with your thoughts and questions. 802-244-1777, or you can email your thoughts and questions at V T viewpoint at Radio vermont.com we’re talking with executive counselor John Steven from the great state of New Hampshire about a shared issue between our two states, the drastic increase in the price of housing and the lack of options in housing. Counselor, before the break, you were talking about some of the solutions in the legislature that are proposed. I did. I attended a forum that you held last week with developers in the state of New Hampshire, and I’m kind of intrigued. You know what your biggest takeaways were, of the issues that they flagged that they’re dealing with,

John Stephen  12:35

again, unreasonable delays, agencies not working together. Some state agencies look using the rule process to even further delay projects, maybe not intentionally, but not a lot of collaboration. And what I see was we’re so happy about seeing was the state agencies themselves, Fish and Game, environmental services, cultural and natural resources, who have a stake here in this issue that in the past have been responsible through their own rules and regulations for delay showing up, talking with the developers, hearing The concerns, and then also echoing a need to really sit down and work together. I think a lot of that is driven by Governor Kelly Ayotte mandate and priority, top priority here to make sure we really limit the timeline, and that’s what I’ve been talking about. And Governor Ayotte and I, both this summer were campaigning. We were going door to door together, and we heard the same same complaints, and we heard about the housing issue loud and clear, and we kept talking as we’re walking from house to house, how can we get these state agencies to work together in a much more streamlined fashion? And a lot of it Ross is about process. Some of it is about unnecessary rules that need to be changed, delays causing the delays. Some of it is, is even involving federal rules and federal law, where we need to have the Trump administration now grant more flexibility to states. So a lot of this is going to be looked at, and then when you look at the local zoning and planning, there are issues there that have to be addressed, and there are issues we heard at the forum. One was from Giovanni verani, who owns a realty company, who also sits on the local zoning and planning board in Londonderry, and actually said that the planning and local zoning and planning board, and leninder Has someone that basically wants to vote to stop growth period, any growth, any further growth in that town, which the town, subjecting the town to lawsuits, and you have this type of mentality that we need to make sure we’re working towards this common goal. So there. Is going to be legislation. There is legislation filed both by Senator Keith Murphy and by Representative Joe Alexander in the house, and the Speaker of the House, Sherman Packard, the senate president as well. Is Sherry Carson very committed to doing everything they can to really streamline and push this to a point where permitting and local land zoning and planning is done much more efficiently. So we’ll see some good results coming out of this, especially some of the ideas we heard will be raised during those sessions.

Ross Connolly  15:35

It was really and kudos to you, John for for putting it on a really great forum. I wish more elected officials would do this where, you know, you had everyone from every side there, giving their thoughts, and in, you know, there were so there was complaints, you know, about the current process, but everyone had a solution to come to the table. And it was sort of eye opening to me that because often, you know, across the Northeast, we see states enacting, you know, subsidy programs to incentivize developers to build not one developer I heard mentioned any sort of problem with money. Everything was was red tape and regulatory barriers that they were dealing with is that basically the same, same view you had that, you know, money isn’t the problem.

John Stephen  16:29

Absolutely, Ross, you nailed it. I remember Chad cagi Larry, one of the developers, large developer in the state. He stood up and said, Look, I’m sure I’m not going to speak for everyone here, but I’m sure these developers, we had 65 and 10 that they would be willing to pay more if we knew our projects were going to be swiftly reviewed, hopefully approved. If there are issues, let’s address them up front, and we’d pay more to see that happen, versus waiting 18 to three years, 18 months to three years, and the cost of lumber goes up, the cost of development goes up. The cost of engineering goes up. And then the consumer or the property owner, the property owner that has every right to want to do whatever they need to do to help fix this problem and sell their property, their own property to enhance development doesn’t have to wait two, three years. And again, that was a reassuring thing. I also thought it was really reassuring when Adam Crapo, who represented department environmental services, said that, you know, they’re working on efforts right now to streamline so that upfront, a number of issues where you’d get, you know, the clock, they say this in 60 to 90 day, clock would keep clicking, and then next thing you know, they just continue the clock, or they’re going to deny your permit. They know we’re going to adhere to that clock. And if there’s something that’s going to further extend the clock, then maybe we do a pre approval so the developer can move forward. And again, if there’s an issue that we encounter the develop, the developer will be on the hook for those costs, and everyone in that room said we’re willing to accept that responsibility, especially because they know the engineers they’re hiring Ross are this are some of the same engineers that the Department of Transportation, environmental services and others rely on, including at the local level. We’re not talking about, you know, I’m an attorney. I have a bar license. We’re talking about professionals that have licenses and that are pretty sharp, and then aren’t going to be saying things that are actually not true, and so let’s move forward together. And again, that was what was reassuring. And again, I stressed in the beginning, I didn’t want to hear just complaints. I want to hear solutions. And I know Governor Ayotte, I spoke to her about this, is very encouraged and will continue to work hard with the departments to make sure they abide by her mandate was 60 days for approvals, so we’ll see how that where that goes. But I am, and the government council, I’m I have the ability to sit over and look at the contracts that these agencies bring to our attention, and I’m going to continue to raise the issue Ross, until I see improvement at all levels.

Ross Connolly  19:23

Well. Thank you for doing that, counselor. I know you know just the number one issue, whether it’s here in Vermont or in New Hampshire, it’s one of the things you hear the most from, from folks in the States, that it’s just becoming unaffordable to live there, especially here in Vermont. I know Governor Scott and Representative Bartley are really pushing to end act 250 which is the regulatory framework here in Vermont that’s holding back development so similar solution. Maybe you guys can can work across state lines to share ideas, but you know, lots of opportunity to get government out of the way and provide more housing to both Granite Staters and Vermonters. Real quick. John I because it made a lot of news when she took office. Can you briefly describe what the governor’s plan is and what she’s trying to achieve with this new coach department.

John Stephen  20:27

Well, actually going to be meeting with them in an hour. I think it’s great. I think again, this is something on the campaign trail. I talked to the governor about efficiency is important to her. She doesn’t have the luxury of growing revenues in New Hampshire right now, it doesn’t look that way. She doesn’t have the luxury to just increase spending, and she doesn’t want to. She wants to make sure we look at every area of government and whether we’re using our dollars wisely. I don’t believe, and she doesn’t believe New Hampshire has so much of a revenue problem as it has a spending problem, and I think that she’s going to be really tough on any spending, and I will as well. That is not unnecessary. And we look at a lot of these programs in state government, they may sound good, but you know what, Ross, I’m sorry I don’t need a Cadillac. The taxpayers of this state want value. They want efficiency. They want the best services they can possibly have. But they don’t need a Cadillac, and we just need government to work swiftly, efficiently, and we have to be very careful and mindful of every dollar we spend right now, because we may have tough times ahead. We may, you know, we need to prepare. We need to have a very plush, rainy day fund for that, but we can’t have department heads running away with uncontrolled spending on projects that are just not necessary. And I believe someone isn’t that 100%

Ross Connolly  21:57

efficiency is the name of the game, whether it’s the federal level, with the dose department or the codes department over in New Hampshire, everyone’s looking for more efficiency with their tax dollars, and I’m sure your constituents, John, are happy to have you representing them to being a good steward of those dollars. Thank you so much for joining the Vermont viewpoint.

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